Ask a Question - or - Return to the Spiritual Warfare Forum Index

Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
on swooning in the Spirit	Sister Seraphim	Saturday, November 8, 2008
Question: In mystical theology the difference between falling in the Spirit [Aquinas: official term is rapture] and ecstasy is that during the former one retains full consciousness and during the latter one is unconscious to all that happens to the body. Likewise in diabolical possession the person has amnesia regarding the direct use of his body by satan during exorcism but a person simply afflicted by spirits and undergoing deliverance is aware[indeed, should let it be known] that he is experiencing things. Hence someone who is ajusting her dress while in a rapture [swooning] is conscious on both levels and this is no distraction whatever to the interior experience. Therefore surely to say that that one would be so rapt in the Spirit at that time could not ajust clothing is incorrect? This view attributes ecstasy to everyone who falls in the Spirit whereas on occasion it may be an ecstasy but on most occassions it is rapture as both Aquinas and St Teresa of Avila state in their descriptions of this penomena? Excellent Site by the way - wish there were many more ministry places like yours in every country. Sr. Seraphim
Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM Dear Sister: Thank you for your kind words about our ministry. On the issue of rapture and ecstasy I have a different understanding of what the Saints teach about this. St. Thomas Aquinas described rapture as... ...the state of being transported emotionally or spiritually, it is being carried out of oneself by a kind of ecstasy. It is the uplifting of a person by the Spirit of God to things supernatural.... (Summa Theologica, Part II, question 175) This in itself does not seem lend itself to be concerned over such pedestrian things as one's skirt. But, there is more we can learn about his from other Saints that gives us a clearer picture. St. Francis de Sales said: As ecstasy is called rapture inasmuch as in it God draws and lifts us up to himself, and rapture is called ecstasy because in it we go out and above ourselves, and remain there so as to be united to God... (Love of God, Book VI, chpt. 4) St. Teresa of Avilá offers perhaps the clearest explanation: In these raptures most often there is no remedy; rather, without any forethought or any help there frequently comes a force so swift and powerful that one sees and feels this mighty eagle raise it up and carry it aloft on its wings... One sees oneself carried away and does not know where.... (Collected Works, "Life," chpt 20) St. Teresa goes on to explain that the rapture occurs unexpectedly, momentarily suspending all the human faculties. Her description is at variance to the idea of falling on the floor as the main exhibition of the rapture. I would say that her description precludes at least 95% or more of the so-called swooning in charismatic meetings and healing which happens be design and expectation of the people. When the body is in rapture it is as though dead, frequently being unable to do anything of itself. It remains in the position it was when seized by the rapture, whether standing or sitting, or whether with hands open or closed. Ordinarily the soul is disoriented... This complete transformation of the soul is God lasts only a short time; but while it lasts no faculty is felt, nor does the soul know what is happening in this prayer... After the soul returns to itself -- the rapture has been intense -- it goes about for a day or two, or even three, with the faculties absorbed or as though stupefied; it seems to be outside of itself.... (Life, chpt 20) It would appear to me that these quotes from the Saints support my original thoughts on the matter. God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

on swooning in the Spirit

Sister Seraphim

Saturday, November 8, 2008

Question:

In mystical theology the difference between falling in the Spirit [Aquinas: official term is rapture] and ecstasy is that during the former one retains full consciousness and during the latter one is unconscious to all that happens to the body. Likewise in diabolical possession the person has amnesia regarding the direct use of his body by satan during exorcism but a person simply afflicted by spirits and undergoing deliverance is aware[indeed, should let it be known] that he is experiencing things.

Hence someone who is ajusting her dress while in a rapture [swooning] is conscious on both levels and this is no distraction whatever to the interior experience. Therefore surely to say that that one would be so rapt in the Spirit at that time could not ajust clothing is incorrect? This view attributes ecstasy to everyone who falls in the Spirit whereas on occasion it may be an ecstasy but on most occassions it is rapture as both Aquinas and St Teresa of Avila state in their descriptions of this penomena?

Excellent Site by the way - wish there were many more ministry places like yours in every country. Sr. Seraphim

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM

Dear Sister:

Thank you for your kind words about our ministry.

On the issue of rapture and ecstasy I have a different understanding of what the Saints teach about this.

St. Thomas Aquinas described rapture as...

...the state of being transported emotionally or spiritually, it is being carried out of oneself by a kind of ecstasy. It is the uplifting of a person by the Spirit of God to things supernatural.... (Summa Theologica, Part II, question 175)

This in itself does not seem lend itself to be concerned over such pedestrian things as one's skirt. But, there is more we can learn about his from other Saints that gives us a clearer picture.

St. Francis de Sales said:

As ecstasy is called rapture inasmuch as in it God draws and lifts us up to himself, and rapture is called ecstasy because in it we go out and above ourselves, and remain there so as to be united to God... (Love of God, Book VI, chpt. 4)

St. Teresa of Avilá offers perhaps the clearest explanation:

In these raptures most often there is no remedy; rather, without any forethought or any help there frequently comes a force so swift and powerful that one sees and feels this mighty eagle raise it up and carry it aloft on its wings... One sees oneself carried away and does not know where.... (Collected Works, "Life," chpt 20)

St. Teresa goes on to explain that the rapture occurs unexpectedly, momentarily suspending all the human faculties. Her description is at variance to the idea of falling on the floor as the main exhibition of the rapture. I would say that her description precludes at least 95% or more of the so-called swooning in charismatic meetings and healing which happens be design and expectation of the people.

When the body is in rapture it is as though dead, frequently being unable to do anything of itself. It remains in the position it was when seized by the rapture, whether standing or sitting, or whether with hands open or closed. Ordinarily the soul is disoriented...
This complete transformation of the soul is God lasts only a short time; but while it lasts no faculty is felt, nor does the soul know what is happening in this prayer...
After the soul returns to itself -- the rapture has been intense -- it goes about for a day or two, or even three, with the faculties absorbed or as though stupefied; it seems to be outside of itself.... (Life, chpt 20)

It would appear to me that these quotes from the Saints support my original thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.