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Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
Trusting discernment: everyone says they are right!	Tim	Friday, January 25, 2008
Question: Having had a massive debate on the street with two members of a dangerous pseudo-Christian sect, they used a lot of very clever tactics like, "Well, if you are really sincere, God will show you the way and convert you and if your Catholic God were really God we would be convicted..." They could "refute" anything I had to say by just dismissing it with nonsense and often contradictory statements. They told me I was deluded and going to Hell. They believe that all the Protestants and pseudo-Christian sects out there are all evil -- all but "theirs" because they have the Bible and the truth (and "Jesus was NOT GOD while on Earth")! Of course, EVERYONE (from Muslims to Mormons, JW's to atheists) believe they are right. Using reason with these people was not going to do any good. But it got me thinking: now, I know the Catholic Faith which delivered us the Scriptures is the TRUE FAITH. And the devil always wants to attack me by ripping me from my strong Catholic roots and spirituality. But how can I "prove" my "discernment" is genuine? I have always discerned demonic attacks from pseudo-Christian and am overwhelmed by the LOVE of my God who leads me to Him and past the evil one. But in the mire of accusations among sects of being possessed or in error, how can one trust one's own discernment? I'm satisfied with "because the Church says so" but many people considering Catholicism cannot accept such logic and reason. We are called to test all spirits but how can I know when I'm right? Even though every time I have prayed in tongues or tried to test it as from God, it seems from God but what if I am really truly DECEIVED and only THINK I am close to God but the whole time I am not? It all feels like circular, and often confusing, relativist reasoning since a Mormon or a Baptist will "discern" and confirm that Catholics are heathens. And many Catholics are sincere but err when they want to "discern." What's not to say that MY discernment is actually correct?!?
Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM Dear Tim: I would suggest that you look into the Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola where he talks about Discernment of Spirits. He gives rules of discernment and also rules on how to think with the Church. The most basic discernment comes from comparing our views, feelings, ideas, and experiences with what is officially taught by the Church. If what we are thinking is contrary to any infallible teaching of the Church, disrespectful or oppositional to any authoritative teaching or discipline of the Church, or disobedient to legitimate Church authority or teaching, then we are wrong. Secondly, since the Church does not give an official teaching on every subject, when what we are thinking is not explicitly covered by Church teaching, we need to then examine ourselves in the light of reason, not emotion, according to the Principles of Truth that are derived by the Church teaching. We do this in a spirit of submission. Thirdly, we can never trust ourselves. Testing the spirits is not something we do in isolation because we can delude ourselves. It is imperative to seek counsel from a wise spiritual director or other trusted adviser who is 100% loyal and obedient to the Church to help us with our discernment. When Catholics err in their discernment it is nearly always because they violate these three basic rules and go thinking they know more than the Church, or allow their emotions to dictate their views without regard to reason, or otherwise allow their pride to lead them astray. As far as convincing others that the Catholic point-of-view is the correct view, that is not our job. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convince. Our job is to merely give the message. We need to explain our faith and do so in as persuasive a way as possible, but we are to avoid the motivation to "convince" or to "prove." We cannot prove the sky is blue to a person determined to believe that it is yellow no matter what logic or evidence we present. St. Paul tells us to avoid unproductive argumentation. People like that you describe are set in their own delusions. Do not go in circles with them. Present the facts, explain the reasons for your faith, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest, and walk away. To argue with them in ad nauseum can lead to you losing your peace in Christ, indulges their error by giving them a hearing as if their error is on the same level as truth, and produces no good fruit. 1Tim 6:3-5a Anyone who teaches something different disagrees with the correct and godly teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. Those people who disagree are proud of themselves, but they don't really know a thing. Their minds are sick, and they like to argue over words. They cause jealousy, disagreements, unkind words, evil suspicions, and nasty quarrels. They have wicked minds and have missed out on the truth. 2Tim 2:14-17a Don't let anyone forget these things. And with God as your witness, you must warn them not to argue about words. These arguments don't help anyone. In fact, they ruin everyone who listens to them. Do your best to win God's approval as a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed and who teaches only the true message. Keep away from worthless and useless talk. It only leads people farther away from God. That sort of talk is like a sore that won't heal. I hope this helps. God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

Trusting discernment: everyone says they are right!

Tim

Friday, January 25, 2008

Question:

Having had a massive debate on the street with two members of a dangerous pseudo-Christian sect, they used a lot of very clever tactics like, "Well, if you are really sincere, God will show you the way and convert you and if your Catholic God were really God we would be convicted..."

They could "refute" anything I had to say by just dismissing it with nonsense and often contradictory statements. They told me I was deluded and going to Hell. They believe that all the Protestants and pseudo-Christian sects out there are all evil -- all but "theirs" because they have the Bible and the truth (and "Jesus was NOT GOD while on Earth")! Of course, EVERYONE (from Muslims to Mormons, JW's to atheists) believe they are right. Using reason with these people was not going to do any good.

But it got me thinking: now, I know the Catholic Faith which delivered us the Scriptures is the TRUE FAITH. And the devil always wants to attack me by ripping me from my strong Catholic roots and spirituality. But how can I "prove" my "discernment" is genuine?

I have always discerned demonic attacks from pseudo-Christian and am overwhelmed by the LOVE of my God who leads me to Him and past the evil one. But in the mire of accusations among sects of being possessed or in error, how can one trust one's own discernment?

I'm satisfied with "because the Church says so" but many people considering Catholicism cannot accept such logic and reason. We are called to test all spirits but how can I know when I'm right?

Even though every time I have prayed in tongues or tried to test it as from God, it seems from God but what if I am really truly DECEIVED and only THINK I am close to God but the whole time I am not? It all feels like circular, and often confusing, relativist reasoning since a Mormon or a Baptist will "discern" and confirm that Catholics are heathens.

And many Catholics are sincere but err when they want to "discern." What's not to say that MY discernment is actually correct?!?

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM

Dear Tim:

I would suggest that you look into the Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola where he talks about Discernment of Spirits. He gives rules of discernment and also rules on how to think with the Church.

The most basic discernment comes from comparing our views, feelings, ideas, and experiences with what is officially taught by the Church. If what we are thinking is contrary to any infallible teaching of the Church, disrespectful or oppositional to any authoritative teaching or discipline of the Church, or disobedient to legitimate Church authority or teaching, then we are wrong.

Secondly, since the Church does not give an official teaching on every subject, when what we are thinking is not explicitly covered by Church teaching, we need to then examine ourselves in the light of reason, not emotion, according to the Principles of Truth that are derived by the Church teaching. We do this in a spirit of submission.

Thirdly, we can never trust ourselves. Testing the spirits is not something we do in isolation because we can delude ourselves. It is imperative to seek counsel from a wise spiritual director or other trusted adviser who is 100% loyal and obedient to the Church to help us with our discernment.

When Catholics err in their discernment it is nearly always because they violate these three basic rules and go thinking they know more than the Church, or allow their emotions to dictate their views without regard to reason, or otherwise allow their pride to lead them astray.

As far as convincing others that the Catholic point-of-view is the correct view, that is not our job. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convince. Our job is to merely give the message.

We need to explain our faith and do so in as persuasive a way as possible, but we are to avoid the motivation to "convince" or to "prove." We cannot prove the sky is blue to a person determined to believe that it is yellow no matter what logic or evidence we present.

St. Paul tells us to avoid unproductive argumentation. People like that you describe are set in their own delusions. Do not go in circles with them. Present the facts, explain the reasons for your faith, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest, and walk away.

To argue with them in ad nauseum can lead to you losing your peace in Christ, indulges their error by giving them a hearing as if their error is on the same level as truth, and produces no good fruit.

1Tim 6:3-5a Anyone who teaches something different disagrees with the correct and godly teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. Those people who disagree are proud of themselves, but they don't really know a thing. Their minds are sick, and they like to argue over words. They cause jealousy, disagreements, unkind words, evil suspicions, and nasty quarrels. They have wicked minds and have missed out on the truth.

2Tim 2:14-17a Don't let anyone forget these things. And with God as your witness, you must warn them not to argue about words. These arguments don't help anyone. In fact, they ruin everyone who listens to them. Do your best to win God's approval as a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed and who teaches only the true message.

Keep away from worthless and useless talk. It only leads people farther away from God. That sort of talk is like a sore that won't heal.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.