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Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
Testing tongues	joanna	Wednesday, August 8, 2007
Question: Having just been introduced to this website I am horrified to read that I may be cursing God in tongues without knowing it. It is recommended that that tongues be authenticated by a third person but you give no guidance as to who would that third person be? From my own experience I can only say that spontaneously realising that I could speak in tongues, whilst praying the rosary for a sick relative one day over two years ago, began an incredible conversion experience for me (and coincided with my relative's healing) that has transformed me from being a dutiful Catholic into a devout Catholic who loves all aspects of the Church and in whom the faith is very much alive. I was advised to pray in tongues ever day by a very respected person in the Catholic Church who has responsibility for Catholic Evanglisation Services (and does so in a very traditional rather than Charismatic style). So who is right? Also, I take the point about personal edification not being beneficial to the community but this could also be wrong thinking since the majority of active Catholic laity are Charismatic and can trace their love of the Church from the time they began praying in tongues. Maybe this is why St Paul thanked God that he spoke in tongues so often? Any answers would be gratefully received.
Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM Dear Joanna: Sorry for the delay in responding; I have been in the hospital. The "testing" of tongues can be accomplished by any third party. The procedure is for the tongue-speaker to be instructed to begin speaking in tongues with an acute awareness of the "spirit" behind the tongues. The third party then prays a prayer such as this: In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Father, in heaven, we come to you asking for a authentication of the gift of tongues given to ___________. We ask that the spirit behind the tongues be forced to be truthful to our inquiry that the real source of these tongues be revealed. We also ask, Father, that no one here be harmed by this inquiry. Amen. Then the third party addresses the "spirit" behind the tongues: In the name of Jesus Christ, we now ask of the spirit behind the tongues speaking through __________ under command of God to tell the truth: Has Jesus Christ, Son of the Most High God, second Person of the Holy Trinity, come in the flesh? {pause} Are these tongues a gift from the Holy Spirit? {pause}. The tongue-speaker needs to be attentive to the inner voice. If there is ANY hesitation in answering either of these questions, then the "tongues" are probably not genuine. Keep in mind, this is not foolproof. It depends upon the tongues-speakers sensitivity to the inner voice (the spirit of the tongues), their honesty, and their willingness to give up tongues should the test results be negative. The lack of willingness to give up tongues is a MAJOR clue that the tongues are 1) either not from God; or 2) the person's spiritual maturity is very low; or 3) both. All of us should have total willingness to give up any gift, even gifts that are genuinely from God, if God asks that of us, or if it is prudent to do so. Lack of willingness is Pride. These "gifts" are on loan to us and thus we are to be stewards, not owners, of those gifts. All gifts are subject to the largess of God. I praise God that your experience with tongues lead you to be a better Catholic. That is a common experience with many people in the Charismatic Renewal. This fact. this positive "fruit", however, is NOT a guarantee that a particular experience is from God necessarily. We misinterpret the comments of Jesus of "you shall know them by their fruits." A good fruit, as a matter of fact, can come from a bad tree. Jesus was stating an overall principle, not a scientific test. There are many people, for example, who claim positive fruit from the Bayside Visions. Problem is that Bayside has been officially condemned by the Church as not coming from God. Point is that it is possible to have good fruit come from a bad source. As for the advice you have been given, if your personal gift of tongues (not to be confused with the Charism Gift of Tongues that are one of the Charism Gifts of the Spirit) is genuine then there is nothing wrong with praying in tongues daily. I personally do not understand why one needs to do that. St. Paul makes it clear that speaking in a language one knows is better because we know what we are saying (and it absolutely avoids the problem of speaking curses without knowing it). The alleged reasons for tongues given by the Charismatic Renewal are usually borrowed from the Pentecostal Charismatics (whose theology and praxeology are inconsistent with Catholicism). Those reasons, such as the one about "praying in the spirit", as referenced in the Bible, is not exclusive to "tongues" although Charismatics seem to always interpret it that way. The one about not knowing what to pray based upon Romans 8:26 is just plain wrong and based on a misinterpretation of Romans 8:26 which specifically says that this phenomenon is "without words". That means that this verse cannot be talking about tongues since tongues, by definition, involves words. See the long essay, Charism Gifts to Build Up the Church (pdf file), for a full-length discussion of the Charismatic Gifts. Now to the personal edification part. The Gift of Tongues as experienced on Pentecost was a preaching gift used to evangelize -- preach the Gospel to everyone present regardless of language. This would be a handy gift on the Mission field. The personal gift of tongues that people use in their personal prayers, however, has no relationship with this. The Charism Gift of Tongues is a public ministry, that is, for the good of the Church, to build-up the Church in a public way. A personal gift of tongues may build-up the person and thus the person contributes to the Church, but this is a private edification with public effects, not a public ministry. Only those tongues that qualify as a public edification of the Church and her people can be called the Charism Gift of Tongues. As to the idea that most active Catholic laity are Charismatic and trace their love of the Church to the speaking of tongues, this is simply not true -- not even close to being true. Most active and devout Catholics are NOT involved in the Charismatic Renewal and the majority of active and devout Catholics do NOT speak in tongues. There is a significant number of people active in the Charismatic Renewal who do not speak in tongues. Tongues are unimportant and the least of all gifts according to St. Paul. The emphasis of "tongues" is improper and unBiblical. Catholics who emphasize tongues need to stop borrowing from a Protestant Pentecostal mindset and develop a thoroughly Catholic perspective on this. As a final note on tongues, we must remember that "tongues" is the easiest of all phenomena to be counterfeited by the devil. In fact, speaking in tongues is one of the official symptoms of demonic possession according to the Church's Rite of Exorcism. This does not mean that tongues speakers are possessed. What it means and shows is that tongues can be used by the devil very easily. Given the fact that tongues is not necessary for spiritual growth, not necessary to "pray in the spirit", is the least of all gifts, and can be so easily counterfeited, I fail to understand why it is emphasized or sought-after at all. I think humility will say, "Lord, I accept whatever gift you choose to give me" rather than "Lord, I want tongues". I realize that many do not ask, but find themselves speaking in tongues spontaneously. Be careful. The tongues may or not be from God. By the way, I use to speak in tongues myself until one day I realized that my tongues were not from God. I renounced them and have not spoken in tongues since. If one does have a genuine gift of tongues, then praise God, but be sure of your catechesis. The Charismatic Renewal, Life in the Spirit Seminars, and the like give inaccurate information. I was actually kicked out of a Life in the Spirit Seminar for daring to politely, and only because my small group asked me, began to point out some of these improper "Pentecostalisms" and providing Church documents and statements from Popes and Bishops to back it up (see Charism Gifts to Build Up the Church). I praised the Charismatic Renewal overall, but asserted that it needed to be Catholic through and through. I was not only asked to leave, but was insulted in the process. emm, where's the Holy Spirit in that? God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

Testing tongues

joanna

Wednesday, August 8, 2007

Question:

Having just been introduced to this website I am horrified to read that I may be cursing God in tongues without knowing it. It is recommended that that tongues be authenticated by a third person but you give no guidance as to who would that third person be?

From my own experience I can only say that spontaneously realising that I could speak in tongues, whilst praying the rosary for a sick relative one day over two years ago, began an incredible conversion experience for me (and coincided with my relative's healing) that has transformed me from being a dutiful Catholic into a devout Catholic who loves all aspects of the Church and in whom the faith is very much alive.

I was advised to pray in tongues ever day by a very respected person in the Catholic Church who has responsibility for Catholic Evanglisation Services (and does so in a very traditional rather than Charismatic style). So who is right?

Also, I take the point about personal edification not being beneficial to the community but this could also be wrong thinking since the majority of active Catholic laity are Charismatic and can trace their love of the Church from the time they began praying in tongues. Maybe this is why St Paul thanked God that he spoke in tongues so often?

Any answers would be gratefully received.

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM

Dear Joanna:

Sorry for the delay in responding; I have been in the hospital.

The "testing" of tongues can be accomplished by any third party.

The procedure is for the tongue-speaker to be instructed to begin speaking in tongues with an acute awareness of the "spirit" behind the tongues.

The third party then prays a prayer such as this:

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Father, in heaven, we come to you asking for a authentication of the gift of tongues given to ___________. We ask that the spirit behind the tongues be forced to be truthful to our inquiry that the real source of these tongues be revealed. We also ask, Father, that no one here be harmed by this inquiry. Amen.

Then the third party addresses the "spirit" behind the tongues:

In the name of Jesus Christ, we now ask of the spirit behind the tongues speaking through __________ under command of God to tell the truth: Has Jesus Christ, Son of the Most High God, second Person of the Holy Trinity, come in the flesh? {pause} Are these tongues a gift from the Holy Spirit? {pause}.

The tongue-speaker needs to be attentive to the inner voice. If there is ANY hesitation in answering either of these questions, then the "tongues" are probably not genuine.

Keep in mind, this is not foolproof. It depends upon the tongues-speakers sensitivity to the inner voice (the spirit of the tongues), their honesty, and their willingness to give up tongues should the test results be negative.

The lack of willingness to give up tongues is a MAJOR clue that the tongues are 1) either not from God; or 2) the person's spiritual maturity is very low; or 3) both.

All of us should have total willingness to give up any gift, even gifts that are genuinely from God, if God asks that of us, or if it is prudent to do so. Lack of willingness is Pride. These "gifts" are on loan to us and thus we are to be stewards, not owners, of those gifts. All gifts are subject to the largess of God.

I praise God that your experience with tongues lead you to be a better Catholic. That is a common experience with many people in the Charismatic Renewal. This fact. this positive "fruit", however, is NOT a guarantee that a particular experience is from God necessarily.

We misinterpret the comments of Jesus of "you shall know them by their fruits." A good fruit, as a matter of fact, can come from a bad tree. Jesus was stating an overall principle, not a scientific test.

There are many people, for example, who claim positive fruit from the Bayside Visions. Problem is that Bayside has been officially condemned by the Church as not coming from God. Point is that it is possible to have good fruit come from a bad source.

As for the advice you have been given, if your personal gift of tongues (not to be confused with the Charism Gift of Tongues that are one of the Charism Gifts of the Spirit) is genuine then there is nothing wrong with praying in tongues daily.

I personally do not understand why one needs to do that. St. Paul makes it clear that speaking in a language one knows is better because we know what we are saying (and it absolutely avoids the problem of speaking curses without knowing it).

The alleged reasons for tongues given by the Charismatic Renewal are usually borrowed from the Pentecostal Charismatics (whose theology and praxeology are inconsistent with Catholicism). Those reasons, such as the one about "praying in the spirit", as referenced in the Bible, is not exclusive to "tongues" although Charismatics seem to always interpret it that way. The one about not knowing what to pray based upon Romans 8:26 is just plain wrong and based on a misinterpretation of Romans 8:26 which specifically says that this phenomenon is "without words". That means that this verse cannot be talking about tongues since tongues, by definition, involves words. See the long essay, Charism Gifts to Build Up the Church (pdf file), for a full-length discussion of the Charismatic Gifts.

Now to the personal edification part. The Gift of Tongues as experienced on Pentecost was a preaching gift used to evangelize -- preach the Gospel to everyone present regardless of language. This would be a handy gift on the Mission field. The personal gift of tongues that people use in their personal prayers, however, has no relationship with this.

The Charism Gift of Tongues is a public ministry, that is, for the good of the Church, to build-up the Church in a public way. A personal gift of tongues may build-up the person and thus the person contributes to the Church, but this is a private edification with public effects, not a public ministry.

Only those tongues that qualify as a public edification of the Church and her people can be called the Charism Gift of Tongues.

As to the idea that most active Catholic laity are Charismatic and trace their love of the Church to the speaking of tongues, this is simply not true -- not even close to being true.

Most active and devout Catholics are NOT involved in the Charismatic Renewal and the majority of active and devout Catholics do NOT speak in tongues. There is a significant number of people active in the Charismatic Renewal who do not speak in tongues.

Tongues are unimportant and the least of all gifts according to St. Paul. The emphasis of "tongues" is improper and unBiblical. Catholics who emphasize tongues need to stop borrowing from a Protestant Pentecostal mindset and develop a thoroughly Catholic perspective on this.

As a final note on tongues, we must remember that "tongues" is the easiest of all phenomena to be counterfeited by the devil. In fact, speaking in tongues is one of the official symptoms of demonic possession according to the Church's Rite of Exorcism. This does not mean that tongues speakers are possessed. What it means and shows is that tongues can be used by the devil very easily.

Given the fact that tongues is not necessary for spiritual growth, not necessary to "pray in the spirit", is the least of all gifts, and can be so easily counterfeited, I fail to understand why it is emphasized or sought-after at all.

I think humility will say, "Lord, I accept whatever gift you choose to give me" rather than "Lord, I want tongues".

I realize that many do not ask, but find themselves speaking in tongues spontaneously. Be careful. The tongues may or not be from God.

By the way, I use to speak in tongues myself until one day I realized that my tongues were not from God. I renounced them and have not spoken in tongues since.

If one does have a genuine gift of tongues, then praise God, but be sure of your catechesis. The Charismatic Renewal, Life in the Spirit Seminars, and the like give inaccurate information.

I was actually kicked out of a Life in the Spirit Seminar for daring to politely, and only because my small group asked me, began to point out some of these improper "Pentecostalisms" and providing Church documents and statements from Popes and Bishops to back it up (see Charism Gifts to Build Up the Church). I praised the Charismatic Renewal overall, but asserted that it needed to be Catholic through and through.

I was not only asked to leave, but was insulted in the process. emm, where's the Holy Spirit in that?

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

For information on how to receive help see our Help page. We suggest that before contacting us directly for help you try the Seven Steps to Self-Deliverance. These self-help steps will often resolve the problem. Also our Spiritual Warfare Prayer Catalog contains many prayers that may be helpful. If needed you can ask for a Personal Consultation.