Ask a Question - or - Return to the Faith and Spirituality Forum Index

Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
Intention of the priest (con't)	Father Smith	Thursday, June 14, 2007
Question: Here is where we agree: "In the extremely rare instances where a priest purposely, consciously and deliberately does not intend to confect the Eucharist and intends to render it nothing but ordinary bread and wine, then Intention is lacking and the Mass is not valid." (Probably because we are both faithful Catholics and this is what the Church teaches) Where we disagree is if a merely internal intention invalidates. For a complete treatment of the whole question see: http://www.ecclesiadei.nl/apologetiek/ministeralintentions.html Its a fascinating but tedious read. It appears that both of our positions are theologically defensible. I would base my arguement on Thomas who says "except the contrary BE EXPRESSED on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament." (emphasis mine) and Leo XIII in Apostolicae Curae wrote: 33. With this inherent defect of "form" is joined the defect of "intention" which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.
Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM Dear Father: Thank you for the followup, but I have to admit I am confused. That seems to happen a lot lately. In the past several years my health has deteriorated (I am on disability for numerous medical conditions) and one side-effect to these medical problems is some memory impairment and some cognitive problems. Sometimes things just don't click they way they use to. Anyway, that is what is happening here, I am confused and things are not clicking. In my mind, at least, I was not arguing in favor of a mere internal intention invalidating the Mass. That cannot be true since the a priest could in essence have no conscious interior intention at all, or be distracted from it, or even have no faith, and the sacrament is still valid. The only point I was asserting is the statement that you say we agree upon: "In the extremely rare instances where a priest purposely, consciously and deliberately does not intend to confect the Eucharist and intends to render it nothing but ordinary bread and wine, then Intention is lacking and the Mass is not valid." If it seemed that I was arguing for more than this point, then I mis-spoke, I apologize. Fortunately, the scenario described in that paragraph is extremely rare. By the way, this subject and others are the type of topics that can profit from a discussion forum, rather than a Q&A forum which is not designed for back-and-forth discussion. I would invite you, Father, and everyone else to join us in the new John Paul II Discussion Board. It is just getting started and there aren't too many members yet, so we need to encourage more to join in order to get the conversations moving. Father, you are most welcome, as are all our readers of these Q&A Forums, to join us in the John Paul II Discussion Board. God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below: Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum. Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

Intention of the priest (con't)

Father Smith

Thursday, June 14, 2007

Question:

Here is where we agree: "In the extremely rare instances where a priest purposely, consciously and deliberately does not intend to confect the Eucharist and intends to render it nothing but ordinary bread and wine, then Intention is lacking and the Mass is not valid."

(Probably because we are both faithful Catholics and this is what the Church teaches)

Where we disagree is if a merely internal intention invalidates.

For a complete treatment of the whole question see:
http://www.ecclesiadei.nl/apologetiek/ministeralintentions.html

Its a fascinating but tedious read.

It appears that both of our positions are theologically defensible.

I would base my arguement on Thomas who says

"except the contrary BE EXPRESSED on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament." (emphasis mine)

and Leo XIII in Apostolicae Curae wrote:

33. With this inherent defect of "form" is joined the defect of "intention" which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM

Dear Father:

Thank you for the followup, but I have to admit I am confused. That seems to happen a lot lately.

In the past several years my health has deteriorated (I am on disability for numerous medical conditions) and one side-effect to these medical problems is some memory impairment and some cognitive problems. Sometimes things just don't click they way they use to.

Anyway, that is what is happening here, I am confused and things are not clicking.

In my mind, at least, I was not arguing in favor of a mere internal intention invalidating the Mass. That cannot be true since the a priest could in essence have no conscious interior intention at all, or be distracted from it, or even have no faith, and the sacrament is still valid. The only point I was asserting is the statement that you say we agree upon:

"In the extremely rare instances where a priest purposely, consciously and deliberately does not intend to confect the Eucharist and intends to render it nothing but ordinary bread and wine, then Intention is lacking and the Mass is not valid."

If it seemed that I was arguing for more than this point, then I mis-spoke, I apologize.

Fortunately, the scenario described in that paragraph is extremely rare.

By the way, this subject and others are the type of topics that can profit from a discussion forum, rather than a Q&A forum which is not designed for back-and-forth discussion.

I would invite you, Father, and everyone else to join us in the new John Paul II Discussion Board. It is just getting started and there aren't too many members yet, so we need to encourage more to join in order to get the conversations moving. Father, you are most welcome, as are all our readers of these Q&A Forums, to join us in the John Paul II Discussion Board.

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below:
Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum.
Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum
Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum
Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum
Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum