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Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
CHARISMATIC GIFTS AT MASS	John	Wednesday, April 4, 2012
Question: Further to Karl's comment on 28 March - I totally agree and wholeheartedly affirm what he has said. There is nothing worse than a meeting (be it a prayer group or elsewhere) where there is confusion and disorder regarding the charismatic gifts and their exercise. And I agree with you, Brother Ignatius, that the charismatic gifts must be exercised where there is discernment and supervision. What I am saying, though, is that all Catholic charismatic gatherings I've attended (either in the context of Mass or prayer group) have been conducted beautifully - in decency and in good order. The episcopal supervision has ensured there are absolutely no liturgical abuses or 'pentacostalisms". Bearing in mind that historically, Church gatherings (e.g. the Eucharist, Agape) often lasted for extended periods (several hours) and allowed for charismatic expression after the main part of the liturgy was finished - charismatic gifts were never prohibited, so long as they were exercised in good order and followed the directions laid down in 1 Corinthians 12-14. My point is this - while I agree one must definitely avoid 'pentecostalisms' and liturgical abuse, one must also avoid going to the other extreme and "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". For this reason, I still maintain there is definitely room for charismatic expression directly before the final blessing at Mass as there is thus no interference with the liturgy of the Word/liturgy of the Eucharist. Fr Mitch Pacwa (EWTN) supports this view. And so, I rest my case, and say there is no contravention of any directives - provided the guidelines I've outlined are followed. These are my views and I respectfully submit them for consideration. I am very orthodox and traditional - as well as charismatic in my spirituality. One can be traditional and charismatic - the Church for many centuries was both. It's a shame that these days, one equates 'charismatic' spirituality with lunacy - although unfortunately, it's understandable because the 'lunatic fringe' (which I abhor) brings the Charismatic Renewal into disrepute God bless you - JOHN
Question Answered by Dear John: The issue that one cannot say that charistmatic expressions or any other expressions are allowed because there is no specific prohibition to them. Doing jumping jacks is not speciifically mentioned in liturgical law either. Would it be okay to do jumping jacks during communion? No. Liturgical laws allows only what it allows. When there are options for things, the GIRM specifically mentions those options. The Holy See has repeatedly affirmed that innovations and practices cannot be added to the Liturgy without Papal permission. These innovation cannot be "just included." As for history, I would be interested in historical evidence that charismatic expression were ever performed during Mass beyond the first century. The Didache does not mention this. However, what was done historically has no bearing on this. It is the current Magisterium that governs what is or is not allowed in Liturgy As for Pentecostalisms, part of the Pentecostal contamination is in how the variouis Gifts are defined. The Catholic Renewal typically borrows the definitions from the Pentecostals, especially for the definitions of Word of Knowlege, Word of Wishom, Prophecy, and Tongues. Tongues is never permitted unless there is an interpretor. There is absolute no Biblica or patristic evidence of the so-called "private" tongues. Even if such a thing exists, it is private and not for the public assembly. This issue also has nothing to do with being traditional and charismatic. There is a time and place for everything. Mass is not the time for this that I can see. There is no provision in Liturgical Law that I can find that allows for the expression of Charismatic Gifts. Even if you bishop approved of this, does not make it automaticaly ok. Some Bishops in Australia, and in the United States have had a hard time dealing with the concept of orthodoxy. There are many bishops who overstep their authority on liturgical issues and other matters. We have seen that many times here is the U.S. Perhaps a letter to the Holy See is needed to have a definitive answer. God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below: Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum. Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

CHARISMATIC GIFTS AT MASS

John

Wednesday, April 4, 2012

Question:

Further to Karl's comment on 28 March - I totally agree and wholeheartedly affirm what he has said. There is nothing worse than a meeting (be it a prayer group or elsewhere) where there is confusion and disorder regarding the charismatic gifts and their exercise. And I agree with you, Brother Ignatius, that the charismatic gifts must be exercised where there is discernment and supervision.

What I am saying, though, is that all Catholic charismatic gatherings I've attended (either in the context of Mass or prayer group) have been conducted beautifully - in decency and in good order. The episcopal supervision has ensured there are absolutely no liturgical abuses or 'pentacostalisms". Bearing in mind that historically, Church gatherings (e.g. the Eucharist, Agape) often lasted for extended periods (several hours) and allowed for charismatic expression after the main part of the liturgy was finished - charismatic gifts were never prohibited, so long as they were exercised in good order and followed the directions laid down in 1 Corinthians 12-14. My point is this - while I agree one must definitely avoid 'pentecostalisms' and liturgical abuse, one must also avoid going to the other extreme and "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". For this reason, I still maintain there is definitely room for charismatic expression directly before the final blessing at Mass as there is thus no interference with the liturgy of the Word/liturgy of the Eucharist. Fr Mitch Pacwa (EWTN) supports this view. And so, I rest my case, and say there is no contravention of any directives - provided the guidelines I've outlined are followed.

These are my views and I respectfully submit them for consideration. I am very orthodox and traditional - as well as charismatic in my spirituality. One can be traditional and charismatic - the Church for many centuries was both. It's a shame that these days, one equates 'charismatic' spirituality with lunacy - although unfortunately, it's understandable because the 'lunatic fringe' (which I abhor) brings the Charismatic Renewal into disrepute

God bless you -
JOHN

Question Answered by

Dear John:

The issue that one cannot say that charistmatic expressions or any other expressions are allowed because there is no specific prohibition to them. Doing jumping jacks is not speciifically mentioned in liturgical law either. Would it be okay to do jumping jacks during communion? No.

Liturgical laws allows only what it allows. When there are options for things, the GIRM specifically mentions those options. The Holy See has repeatedly affirmed that innovations and practices cannot be added to the Liturgy without Papal permission. These innovation cannot be "just included."

As for history, I would be interested in historical evidence that charismatic expression were ever performed during Mass beyond the first century. The Didache does not mention this. However, what was done historically has no bearing on this. It is the current Magisterium that governs what is or is not allowed in Liturgy

As for Pentecostalisms, part of the Pentecostal contamination is in how the variouis Gifts are defined. The Catholic Renewal typically borrows the definitions from the Pentecostals, especially for the definitions of Word of Knowlege, Word of Wishom, Prophecy, and Tongues.

Tongues is never permitted unless there is an interpretor. There is absolute no Biblica or patristic evidence of the so-called "private" tongues. Even if such a thing exists, it is private and not for the public assembly.

This issue also has nothing to do with being traditional and charismatic. There is a time and place for everything. Mass is not the time for this that I can see.

There is no provision in Liturgical Law that I can find that allows for the expression of Charismatic Gifts. Even if you bishop approved of this, does not make it automaticaly ok. Some Bishops in Australia, and in the United States have had a hard time dealing with the concept of orthodoxy. There are many bishops who overstep their authority on liturgical issues and other matters. We have seen that many times here is the U.S.

Perhaps a letter to the Holy See is needed to have a definitive answer.

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below:
Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum.
Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum
Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum
Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum
Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum