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Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
Purgatory	Jamie	Monday, September 27, 2004
Question: First I want to thank you for all that you do for those of us who are seaking a better understanding of our faith. I have learned a lot from your answers! I am a firm believer in the beliefs of the Catholic Church, but sometimes I come across scripture that confuses me. When Adam and Eve sinned, the gates of Heaven were closed to mankind. How could those who died before the death of Christ be sent to "Abraham's Bossom" when they had the stain of Original Sin on their soul? If a person dies now without Baptism they are condemned to hell, right? When Jesus died, he went into the "abode of the dead" or "Abraham's Bossom" to set the captives free, right? So, this was purgatory for those who went on before us? How could the rich man see Lazarus "resting on Abraham's Bossom" if he was in hell, or were they both in Purgatory? So, now that Jesus has "set the captives free", Protestants can argue that Purgatory no longer exists (even though Scripture points to the fact that it does--Matt. 5:25, 18:34 , Luke 12:58-59 , Matt. 12:32 , Luke 12:47-48 , etc.) Jesus points out that you will be turned over to the jailer and not be released until you have paid the last penny. Did he mean that even AFTER his death and resurrection that we would be sent to Purgatory? He told the thief on the cross next to him that he would be with him that day in Paradise, was this because he made a perfect contrition? Protestants use this as their arguement that as soon as Jesus died, Purgatory was wiped out. I still believe that we need to be freed from our attachment to sin and we need to be made perfect in order to enter Heaven. I think that when we die, we will all be so ashamed of the ugliness of our sins that we will WANT to be purified! Thank you and God Bless you.
Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM+ Dear Jamie: It appears that you are mixing several issues together and are getting confused. In terms of Abraham's Bosom, this was located in Hades, not heaven. It was a limbo, a place of rest and waiting, not a purgatory, where the Old Testament saints remained until the Cross. In between the death and resurrection of Jesus, our Lord descended into hell (that is, he descended to Abraham's Bosom), and set the captives free (that is, he brought the Old Testament saints out of Hades and into heaven). Their salvation was based on their faith in the One True God and upon looking forward to the Christ. In essence they had a "baptism of desire" looking forward to the Messiah. God's grants them His salvific grace in accord with the Old Testament economy of salvation that looked forward to the Cross. On your second question about the lack of baptism sending one to hell, that is not true. Baptism is the normal entrance into the salvific grace of God, but not the only way. There are at least three ways a person can get to heaven without baptism: 1) If an unbaptized person has come to believe in God and wants to be baptized and is planning on being baptized but dies before he is has a chance to be baptized, such man receives God's salvific grace though a "baptism of desire". 2) If an unbaptized person comes to believe in God and suffers persecution for his faith and is martyred before he has a chance to be baptized, such a man received God's salvific grace though a "baptism of blood". 3) If an unbaptized person from any religion or no religion, through no fault of his own he does not know of Christ or His Church, (in a state of invincible ignorance) but "nevertheless seeks God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their action to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." (Catechism, 847) For example, the preverbal aboriginal in the middle of the Amazon jungle who has never seen a white man and has never heard of Jesus can still be saved even though he does not have a specific faith in Jesus and is not baptized. Only God can know who meets this test of invincible ignorance and sincerity of heat and conscience. For those who meet this criteria, they may find salvation even though they are not baptized or even know the existence of Christ. When God saves such a person, He does so through the Catholic Church, though we do not know exactly how. Nevertheless, we know that He does. As for the existence of Purgatory, evangelicals believe in purgatory, they just do not know it. 1 Corinthians 3:15 is a perfect definition of purgatory. Fundamentalists and Evangelicals call this the "Judgment Seat of Christ", Catholics call it "purgatory" -- it is the same thing. The "Judgment Seat of Christ" is not a judgment of a person's salvation. All those brought to the Judgment Seat of Christ are saved. Rather, this judgment is one in which the person's works are purged -- bad works burned up, so that what is left in the incorruptible works of gold, etc. This is a judgment about how well the Christian lived his life for Christ. Purgatory is the exact same thing and does the exact same thing. Protestants are more Catholic than they know :) God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below: Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum. Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

Purgatory

Jamie

Monday, September 27, 2004

Question:

First I want to thank you for all that you do for those of us who are seaking a better understanding of our faith. I have learned a lot from your answers!

I am a firm believer in the beliefs of the Catholic Church, but sometimes I come across scripture that confuses me. When Adam and Eve sinned, the gates of Heaven were closed to mankind. How could those who died before the death of Christ be sent to "Abraham's Bossom" when they had the stain of Original Sin on their soul?

If a person dies now without Baptism they are condemned to hell, right?

When Jesus died, he went into the "abode of the dead" or "Abraham's Bossom" to set the captives free, right? So, this was purgatory for those who went on before us? How could the rich man see Lazarus "resting on Abraham's Bossom" if he was in hell, or were they both in Purgatory? So, now that Jesus has "set the captives free", Protestants can argue that Purgatory no longer exists (even though Scripture points to the fact that it does--Matt. 5:25, 18:34 , Luke 12:58-59 , Matt. 12:32 , Luke 12:47-48 , etc.) Jesus points out that you will be turned over to the jailer and not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Did he mean that even AFTER his death and resurrection that we would be sent to Purgatory? He told the thief on the cross next to him that he would be with him that day in Paradise, was this because he made a perfect contrition? Protestants use this as their arguement that as soon as Jesus died, Purgatory was wiped out.

I still believe that we need to be freed from our attachment to sin and we need to be made perfect in order to enter Heaven. I think that when we die, we will all be so ashamed of the ugliness of our sins that we will WANT to be purified!

Thank you and God Bless you.

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM+

Dear Jamie:

It appears that you are mixing several issues together and are getting confused.

In terms of Abraham's Bosom, this was located in Hades, not heaven. It was a limbo, a place of rest and waiting, not a purgatory, where the Old Testament saints remained until the Cross.

In between the death and resurrection of Jesus, our Lord descended into hell (that is, he descended to Abraham's Bosom), and set the captives free (that is, he brought the Old Testament saints out of Hades and into heaven). Their salvation was based on their faith in the One True God and upon looking forward to the Christ. In essence they had a "baptism of desire" looking forward to the Messiah. God's grants them His salvific grace in accord with the Old Testament economy of salvation that looked forward to the Cross.

On your second question about the lack of baptism sending one to hell, that is not true. Baptism is the normal entrance into the salvific grace of God, but not the only way.

There are at least three ways a person can get to heaven without baptism:

1) If an unbaptized person has come to believe in God and wants to be baptized and is planning on being baptized but dies before he is has a chance to be baptized, such man receives God's salvific grace though a "baptism of desire".

2) If an unbaptized person comes to believe in God and suffers persecution for his faith and is martyred before he has a chance to be baptized, such a man received God's salvific grace though a "baptism of blood".

3) If an unbaptized person from any religion or no religion, through no fault of his own he does not know of Christ or His Church, (in a state of invincible ignorance) but "nevertheless seeks God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their action to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." (Catechism, 847)

For example, the preverbal aboriginal in the middle of the Amazon jungle who has never seen a white man and has never heard of Jesus can still be saved even though he does not have a specific faith in Jesus and is not baptized. Only God can know who meets this test of invincible ignorance and sincerity of heat and conscience. For those who meet this criteria, they may find salvation even though they are not baptized or even know the existence of Christ.

When God saves such a person, He does so through the Catholic Church, though we do not know exactly how. Nevertheless, we know that He does.

As for the existence of Purgatory, evangelicals believe in purgatory, they just do not know it.

1 Corinthians 3:15 is a perfect definition of purgatory. Fundamentalists and Evangelicals call this the "Judgment Seat of Christ", Catholics call it "purgatory" -- it is the same thing.

The "Judgment Seat of Christ" is not a judgment of a person's salvation. All those brought to the Judgment Seat of Christ are saved. Rather, this judgment is one in which the person's works are purged -- bad works burned up, so that what is left in the incorruptible works of gold, etc. This is a judgment about how well the Christian lived his life for Christ.

Purgatory is the exact same thing and does the exact same thing. Protestants are more Catholic than they know :)

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below:
Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum.
Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum
Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum
Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum
Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum