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Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
Water Baptism	Patrick	Sunday, September 27, 2009
Question: Hey, I've got a friend who does not believe baptism in water is salvific. I can and I have shared a lot with him about it. However, it maybe better to address his questions directly. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the subject. Below are his comments. Could you address those for me? I'm particularly interested in synecdoche approach. Is he using this approach appropriately? What can you tell me? Thanks !! His comments. . . It was automaticallly presumed that those who had faith in Christ would be baptized. As such, baptism could and was used as a synecdoche for salvation itself. Just as Paul used circumcision in Galatians as a synecdoche for Torah observance. e.g. if you allow yourselves to be circumcised you have become alienated from Christ. I hope Paul was using synecdoche, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty pissed at my parents on judgment day. they could use BAPTISM as shorthand for having faith in Christ. The normal course of business was to automatically be baptized when one had faith in Christ so it became almost synonymous but not salvific. I am not diminishing its importance, only noting that it is not salvific nor did the Apostles believe it to be. The sign that the Holy Spirit had brought about new creation was faith in King Jesus. Again, Peter was using synecdoche. It is simply a form of speech in which he used baptism to stand for the ontological change that occurs when one hears and belives the good news that Jesus is the King. Study the verse, study synecdoche, and think about it. Also check out Galatians 4 or 5 for another good example.
Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM Dear Patrick: Your friend has quite an intellectual excursion there, but that is all that it is. Jesus said (John 3:5 using the KJV) "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [we are re-born with baptism) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That pretty much settle the issue. A couple more verses confirm this statement by Jesus in John: Jesus said, (MarK 16:16 KJV) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Peter said (Acts 2:38 KJV) "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12). The idea that Baptism is not salvific is a modern man-made invention. "Synecdoche" means "figure of speech". Baptism is not used as a synecdoche in the Bible. Baptism is a literal doctrine that must be applied to be "born again." To consider baptism as a synecdoche is intellectual dishonesty and wishful thinking on the part of Protestants who deny the clear teaching of the Bible and the teaching of the Christians for 2000 years to justify a novel man-made doctrine that was invented primarily as a protest against the Catholic Church. I'll refer you to several pamphlets that will go into some detail on this subject, including the words of the Church Fathers: Infant Baptism Early Teachings on Infant Baptism Baptism: Immersion Only? Baptismal Grace * especially this one. Born Again in Baptism Trinitarian Baptism The Necessity of Baptism also this one Also on the Scripture Catholic website is a list of the Scriptures that suppose Catholic Teaching on Baptism. On the Biblical Evidence for Catholicism website there are a list of articles, including a transcript of a debate about Baptism with a Protestant. All this should give you more than enough information. God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary Footer Notes:* This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below: Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum. Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

Water Baptism

Patrick

Sunday, September 27, 2009

Question:

Hey, I've got a friend who does not believe baptism in water is salvific. I can and I have shared a lot with him about it. However, it maybe better to address his questions directly. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the subject. Below are his comments. Could you address those for me? I'm particularly interested in synecdoche approach. Is he using this approach appropriately? What can you tell me? Thanks !!

His comments. . .
It was automaticallly presumed that those who had faith in Christ would be baptized. As such, baptism could and was used as a synecdoche for salvation itself. Just as Paul used circumcision in Galatians as a synecdoche for Torah observance. e.g. if you allow yourselves to be circumcised you have become alienated from Christ. I hope Paul was using synecdoche, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty pissed at my parents on judgment day.
they could use BAPTISM as shorthand for having faith in Christ. The normal course of business was to automatically be baptized when one had faith in Christ so it became almost synonymous but not salvific.

I am not diminishing its importance, only noting that it is not salvific nor did the Apostles believe it to be. The sign that the Holy Spirit had brought about new creation was faith in King Jesus.

Again, Peter was using synecdoche. It is simply a form of speech in which he used baptism to stand for the ontological change that occurs when one hears and belives the good news that Jesus is the King.

Study the verse, study synecdoche, and think about it. Also check out Galatians 4 or 5 for another good example.

Question Answered by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM

Dear Patrick:

Your friend has quite an intellectual excursion there, but that is all that it is.

Jesus said (John 3:5 using the KJV) "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [we are re-born with baptism) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That pretty much settle the issue. A couple more verses confirm this statement by Jesus in John:

Jesus said, (MarK 16:16 KJV) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Peter said (Acts 2:38 KJV) "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12). The idea that Baptism is not salvific is a modern man-made invention.

"Synecdoche" means "figure of speech". Baptism is not used as a synecdoche in the Bible. Baptism is a literal doctrine that must be applied to be "born again." To consider baptism as a synecdoche is intellectual dishonesty and wishful thinking on the part of Protestants who deny the clear teaching of the Bible and the teaching of the Christians for 2000 years to justify a novel man-made doctrine that was invented primarily as a protest against the Catholic Church.

I'll refer you to several pamphlets that will go into some detail on this subject, including the words of the Church Fathers:

Infant Baptism
Early Teachings on Infant Baptism
Baptism: Immersion Only?
Baptismal Grace * especially this one.
Born Again in Baptism
Trinitarian Baptism
The Necessity of Baptism *also this one

Also on the Scripture Catholic website is a list of the Scriptures that suppose Catholic Teaching on Baptism.

On the Biblical Evidence for Catholicism website there are a list of articles, including a transcript of a debate about Baptism with a Protestant.

All this should give you more than enough information.

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below:
Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum.
Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum
Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum
Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum
Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum