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Question Title	Posted By	Question Date
Questions on the Lord's Prayer	Jerome	Saturday, October 25, 2008
Question: I have four questions on “The Lord’s Prayer” : 1) The phrase “thy kingdom come” is translated from the Greek second aorist which is vague in tense. Is it the Church’s understanding that this is to be interpreted as “thy kingdom is come” (reinforcing Christ’s divinity) or “thy kingdom will come” (foretelling the second coming) ? 2) In the phase “forgive us our trespasses”, why the “us”? – Is there a difference between “forgive us our trespasses” and “forgive our trespasses”? 3) In the phrase “but deliver us from evil”, why has it been traditionally translated as “but” and not the proper translation of the Latin term “sed” which means “and indeed, what is more“? The term “but” seems to make no sense and is confusing. And finally: 4) Why does the Latin Vulgate stop at “but deliver us from evil” (in Matthew 6:13) but the Greek continues with “ For thine is ….”, etc. (which is the Protestant version) ? Thank you.
Question Answered by Dear Jerome: Concerning Question #1: I will let the Navarre Bible Commentary answer this one: "The Kingdom come": this brings up again the central idea of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- the coming of the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is so identical with the life and work of Jesus Christ that the Gospel is referred to now as the Gospel of Jesus Christ, now as the Gospel of the Kingdom (Mt. 9:35). ... The Kingdom establishes itself in the first place in the core of man's being, raising him up to share in God's own inner life. This elevation has, as it were, two stages -- the first, in this life, where it is brought about by grace; the second, definitive stage in eternal life, where's man's elevation to the supernatural level is fully completed. In other words, "Thy Kingdom come" refers both to the coming of the kingdom in our own souls and in the coming of the kingdom in salvation history. Concerning Question #2: The Latin for this phrase is: et dimitte nobis debita nostra. The literal English is: "and to forgive us debt our". The Latin nobis (us) and nostra (our) correctly reflects the Greek, hemin (us) hemon (our), the same words used in verse 11 for "us" and "our". Thus, the English translation is correct: "And forgive us our debts". Concerning Question #3: The word "but" means "what is more". The Greek here is alla, which is the neuter plural of allos which means "else" as in "otherwise" or "but". This petition, "but deliver us from evil (or from the Evil One)" is a summary of the whole prayer asking God to otherwise free us from everything our enemy does to bring us down. All translations into English to which I am aware translate this as "but". Concerning Question #4: Only the King James Version (and a few others) has the "For thine..." in the main text. The best manuscripts leave out the "For thine..." but some manuscripts, including some ancient manuscript include it. Since the more consistent and definitive manuscripts do not have this phrase, all of the primary translations, Protestant and Catholic, to which I am familiar, except for the King James, either have the "For Thine... in brackets or as a footnote. God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below: Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum. Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum

Question Title

Posted By

Question Date

Questions on the Lord's Prayer

Jerome

Saturday, October 25, 2008

Question:

I have four questions on “The Lord’s Prayer” :

1) The phrase “thy kingdom come” is translated from the Greek second aorist which is vague in tense. Is it the Church’s understanding that this is to be interpreted as “thy kingdom is come” (reinforcing Christ’s divinity) or “thy kingdom will come” (foretelling the second coming) ?

2) In the phase “forgive us our trespasses”, why the “us”? – Is there a difference between “forgive us our trespasses” and “forgive our trespasses”?

3) In the phrase “but deliver us from evil”, why has it been traditionally translated as “but” and not the proper translation of the Latin term “sed” which means “and indeed, what is more“? The term “but” seems to make no sense and is confusing.

And finally:

4) Why does the Latin Vulgate stop at “but deliver us from evil” (in Matthew 6:13) but the Greek continues with “ For thine is ….”, etc. (which is the Protestant version) ?

Thank you.

Question Answered by

Dear Jerome:

Concerning Question #1: I will let the Navarre Bible Commentary answer this one:

"The Kingdom come": this brings up again the central idea of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- the coming of the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is so identical with the life and work of Jesus Christ that the Gospel is referred to now as the Gospel of Jesus Christ, now as the Gospel of the Kingdom (Mt. 9:35). ... The Kingdom establishes itself in the first place in the core of man's being, raising him up to share in God's own inner life. This elevation has, as it were, two stages -- the first, in this life, where it is brought about by grace; the second, definitive stage in eternal life, where's man's elevation to the supernatural level is fully completed.

In other words, "Thy Kingdom come" refers both to the coming of the kingdom in our own souls and in the coming of the kingdom in salvation history.

Concerning Question #2: The Latin for this phrase is: et dimitte nobis debita nostra. The literal English is: "and to forgive us debt our". The Latin nobis (us) and nostra (our) correctly reflects the Greek, hemin (us) hemon (our), the same words used in verse 11 for "us" and "our". Thus, the English translation is correct: "And forgive us our debts".

Concerning Question #3: The word "but" means "what is more". The Greek here is alla, which is the neuter plural of allos which means "else" as in "otherwise" or "but". This petition, "but deliver us from evil (or from the Evil One)" is a summary of the whole prayer asking God to otherwise free us from everything our enemy does to bring us down. All translations into English to which I am aware translate this as "but".

Concerning Question #4: Only the King James Version (and a few others) has the "For thine..." in the main text. The best manuscripts leave out the "For thine..." but some manuscripts, including some ancient manuscript include it. Since the more consistent and definitive manuscripts do not have this phrase, all of the primary translations, Protestant and Catholic, to which I am familiar, except for the King James, either have the "For Thine... in brackets or as a footnote.

God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary

Footer Notes: This forum is for general questions on the faith. See specific Topic Forums below:
Spiritual Warfare, demons, the occult go to our Spiritul Warfare Q&S Forum.
Liturgy Questions go to our Liturgy and Liturgical Law Q&A Forum
Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) Questions go to our Divine Office Q&A Forum
Defenfing the Faith Questions go to our Defending the Faith Q&A Forum
Church History Questions go to our Church History Q&A Forum